10/25/02

LC021025

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> DANGER AT THE DRY CLEANERS. IS IT TIME TO BAN A WIDELY-USED CLEANING SOLVENT LINKED TO CANCER?

TODD CAMPBELL>> BUT THIS IS A DANGER THAT IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE REGULATED AND IT’S IMPACTING EVERYONE BECAUSE A DRY CLEANER IS LOCATED NEAR YOUR SCHOOL, NEAR YOUR PLACE OF BUSINESS, NEAR YOUR HOME.

VAL>> HENRY KISSINGER CALLED HIM THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN IN AMERICA. TONIGHT WE’LL TALK WITH DANIEL ELLSBERG AND FIND OUT HOW HE WENT FROM BEING A KEEPER OF SECRETS TO BLOWING THE WHISTLE WITH THE PENTAGON PAPERS.

JESS>> AND THEN WE’LL TAKE A TRIP TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.

LISA LING>> RIGHT NOW THE POPULATION OF TIBET IS ABOUT 13.5 MILLION. SIX MILLION TIBETANS, 7.5 MILLION CHINESE.

JESS>> THE ANCIENT LAND OF TIBET WAS ONCE FORBIDDEN TERRITORY. NOW TOO MANY VISITORS ARE THE PROBLEM.

VAL>> IT’S ALL NEXT ON TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I’M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I’M JESS MARLOW. YOU MAY HAVE HEARD THIS WEEK’S WARNINGS ABOUT THE POTENTIAL HEALTH THREATS AT YOUR LOCAL DRY CLEANERS. THE CONCERN CENTERS ON A WIDELY-USED CLEANING SOLVENT THAT COULD CAUSE CANCER, BUT IS THE CHEMICAL SO DANGEROUS THAT IT OUGHT TO BE BANNED?

VAL>> TONIGHT A LOOK AT WHAT THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA HAS IN MIND, PLUS WE’LL HEAR FROM SOME VETERANS OF THE DRY CLEANING INDUSTRY WHO SAY THE THREAT HAS BEEN GREATLY OVERBLOWN. HERE’S MORE FROM GAY YEE.

GAY YEE>> STEP BEHIND THE COUNTER AT MOST DRY CLEANERS BEHIND THE PRESSES AND BEHIND THE HANGERS AND, CHANCES ARE, YOU’LL FIND A PERC MACHINE. PERC IS THE CLEANING FLUID THAT’S PUMPED INTO THE WASHERS. IT’S FULL NAME IS PERCHLOROETHYLENE. THE SOLVENT HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE THE 1940’S. CLOTHES ARE SOAKED IN IT TO REMOVE STAINS AND MAKE THEM FRESH AGAIN WITHOUT WATER. PERC IS SO EFFECTIVE THAT MANY PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS CALL IT --

>> -- THE BEST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED IN THE DRY CLEANING INDUSTRY.

GAY YEE>> BUT YOU GET JUST THE OPPOSITE REACTION WHEN YOU MENTION THE SOLVENT TO AN ENVIRONMENTALIST.

TODD CAMPBELL>> PERCHLOROETHYLENE IS A KNOWN CARCINOGEN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA. IT’S ALSO LISTED AS A PROBABLE OR POSSIBLE CARCINOGEN BY THE U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, THE INTERNATIONAL AGENCY FOR RESEARCH ON CANCER. IT’S REALLY BAD STUFF.

GAY YEE>> PERC HAS CONTAMINATED GROUNDWATER AND IT’S GOTTEN INTO THE AIR. TROUBLE COMES WHEN PERC VAPOR IS RELEASED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE. IT CAN HAPPEN WHEN A WORKER REPLACES A MACHINE FILTER, CLEARS OUT THE SLUDGE IN THE BACK OR JUST OPENS THE DOOR TO UNLOAD THE MACHINE.

TODD CAMPBELL>> AND IT’S IMPACTING EVERYONE BECAUSE A DRY CLEANER IS LOCATED NEAR YOUR SCHOOL, NEAR YOUR PLACE OF BUSINESS, NEAR YOUR HOME.

GAY YEE>> AIR QUALITY OFFICIALS SAY IT’S TIME TO GET RID OF PERC AND THEY’RE PROPOSING NEW REGULATIONS THAT WOULD PHASE OUT THE CLEANING SOLVENT ACROSS MUCH OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA OVER THE NEXT TWO DECADES. IF THAT STANDARD IS ADOPTED, IT WOULD BE THE FIRST EVER COMPLETE BAN OF THE CHEMICAL THOUSANDS OF DRY CLEANERS NOW DEPEND ON. BUT THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES AND STATE OFFICIALS ARE ASKING DRY CLEANERS TO START SWITCHING OVER TO THEM. INSTEAD OF PERC, SOME CLEANERS NOW USE SILICON-BASE CLEANSERS. OTHERS USE LIQUEFIED CARBON DIOXIDE. AND PERHAPS THE ULTIMATE ALTERNATIVE TO DRY CLEANING: WET CLEANING.

ELI GICHON>> IT GOES INTO THE MACHINE.

GAY YEE>. ELI GICHON MADE THE CHANGE-OVER EARLIER THIS YEAR. HE INVESTED IN WET CLEANING WITH THE HELP OF CASH INCENTIVES FROM THE AIR QUALITY MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. THE NEW MACHINE USES WATER-BASE CLEANSERS AND, MEANWHILE, ELI’S OLD PERC MACHINE HAS BEEN MOTHBALLED.

ELI GICHON>> ANGORA SWEATERS, SILKS, KNIT SUITS, EVERYTHING THAT WE USED TO HAVE TO DRY CLEAN, WE ARE NOW WET CLEANING AND I HAVE NOT HAD ANY PROBLEM WHATSOEVER.

GAY YEE>> OVER THE HILL, AT CARRIAGE TRADE CLEANERS IN WEST L.A., OWNER STEVE GREEN ALSO HAS A WET CLEANER, BUT HE STILL DOES MOST OF HIS WORK IN A PERC MACHINE.

STEVE GREEN>> I’VE GOT TO DEAL WITH $2,000 ARMANI SUITS, GUCCI. I’M NOT BEVERLY HILLS, BUT WHEN I FEEL THAT THE SCIENCE IS HERE, I’M GOING TO BE THE FIRST BECAUSE I’VE ALREADY BEEN LOOKING. I WANT TO DO THE RIGHT THING, BUT I’M STILL IN BUSINESS AND I’VE GOT TO SUPPORT MY FAMILY.

GAY YEE>> OVER THE LAST DECADE, SCORES OF SOUTHLAND DRY CLEANERS HAVE INVESTED IN NEW PERC MACHINES THAT HAVE LOWER EMISSIONS. GREEN SAYS IT’S REDUCED THE AIR QUALITY PROBLEM BY EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT AND HE CLAIMS ASKING BUSINESSES TO START OVER AGAIN WOULD BE A FINANCIAL NIGHTMARE. OPPONENTS SAY CLOSE TO NINETY PERCENT OF THE DRY CLEANERS IN THIS REGION ARE SMALL MOM AND POP OPERATIONS WITH FIVE EMPLOYEES OR LESS. THEY SAY MANY OF THEM WORK SIX DAYS A WEEK, SOMETIMES EVEN SEVEN, AND FORCING THIS SORT OF REGULATION ON THEM WILL PUT THEM RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS.

SONNY SHAH>> BY SINGLING US OUT, THEY ARE LETTING THE OTHER TWO INDUSTRIES, THE FILM AND PROCESSING INDUSTRY AS WELL AS THE PLATING INDUSTRY. THEY’RE NOT BANNING THAT. THAT’S UNFAIR. THAT’S VERY UNFAIR THAT THEY ARE SINGLING US OUT BECAUSE WE ARE A SMALL BUSINESS, MOM AND POP OPERATORS.

GAY YEE>> BUT ELI GICHON POINTS OUT THAT BUSINESSES HAVE NEARLY TWENTY YEARS TO MAKE THE SWITCH WHICH SHOULD REDUCE THE FINANCIAL HARDSHIP AND HE CLAIMS WET CLEANING HAS ACTUALLY SAVED HIM MONEY.

ELI GICHON>> MY OPERATING COSTS ARE THE SAME OR EVEN LESS THAN BEFORE.

GAY YEE>> HOW COME?

ELI GICHON>> BECAUSE THE NEW EQUIPMENT USES LESS GAS AND ELECTRICITY.

GAY YEE>> WITH THE NEW SYSTEMS, PRESSING GARMENTS SOMETIMES REQUIRES SPECIAL EFFORT AND SOME CLEANERS HAVE EXPERIENCED INCREASED LABOR COSTS. BUT GICHON SAYS HE HASN’T HAD THAT PROBLEM AND, MOST OF ALL, HE SAYS HIS CUSTOMERS LIKE THE CHANGE.

>> YOU DEFINITELY WANT YOUR ENVIRONMENT TO BE SAFE, SO OF COURSE.

>> SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO BITE THE BULLET AND DO WHAT YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO DO FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. I FIRMLY BELIEVE IN THINGS LIKE THAT.

JESS>> GAY YEE JOINS US NOW. HOW SOON WILL WE KNOW WHETHER THIS IS GOING TO BE BANNED?

GAY YEE>> WELL, IT’S BEEN PUT OFF QUITE A NUMBER OF TIMES, BUT THE AQMD IS SUPPOSED TO VOTE ON IT ON NOVEMBER 1, A WEEK FROM TODAY.

JESS>> AND THE LIKELIHOOD?

GAY YEE>> WE DON’T KNOW, WE DON’T KNOW. THERE IS A LOT OF SCREAMING AND YELLING ABOUT THIS FROM THE INDUSTRY BECAUSE THEY FELT THEY HAVE JUMPED THROUGH HOOPS TO GET THE IMPROVED PERC MACHINES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MUCH MORE EFFICIENT, DON’T HAVE AS MANY EMISSIONS AND THEY’RE SAYING YOU’RE ASKING US TO START ALL OVER AGAIN, AND WE HAVEN’T EVEN RECOUPED OUR INVESTMENT FROM THESE MACHINES.

VAL>> NOW IS CALIFORNIA THE ONLY STATE THAT IS INTERESTED IN OUTLAWING PERC?

GAY YEE>> THIS IS THE FIRST STATE THAT IS THIS CLOSE TO ACTUALLY TAKING ACTION. YOU MAY ASK WHAT DO ALL THE OTHER STATES DO? WELL, ACTUALLY, MOST STATES STILL USE PERC, BUT THE QUESTION I PUT FORTH TO THE CLEAN AIR FOLKS IS WHY DO WE HAVE TO DO IT? THEY’RE SAYING WE HAVE THE DIRTIEST AIR IN THE NATION --

JESS>> -- AND SOME OF THE DIRTIEST CLOTHES (LAUGHTER).

GAY YEE>> (LAUGHTER) SO WE’LL HAVE TO BE THE TRAILBLAZER IN ALL THIS AND THAT’S THEIR FEELING ABOUT IT.

VAL>> SO THE EMISSIONS ARE NOT ONLY HARMFUL TO THE EMPLOYEES, BUT THEY’RE ACTUALLY WHAT CONTRIBUTE TO SMOG OR --

GAY YEE>> -- WELL, IT GETS EMITTED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, INTO THE AIR. ALSO, IT HAS BEEN FOUND IN GROUNDWATER, ALTHOUGH THE GROUNDWATER ISSUE SEEMS TO BE NOT AS SEVERE AS IT ONCE WAS. THEY SEEM TO BE HAVING A HANDLE ON THAT. THE CONCERN NOW IS HOW MUCH GETS INTO THE ENVIRONMENT AND INTO THE AIR WE BREATH.

JESS>> AND THE TIMETABLE FOR PHASING OUT THIS CHEMICAL?

GAY YEE>> THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT GIVING INCENTIVES TO THE DRY CLEANERS NOW TO MAKE A SWITCH-OUT. AT 2004, THE INCENTIVES MAY BE GONE AND, AT THAT TIME, IF THEIR MACHINE BREAKS DOWN, THEY MUST SWITCH IT OUT TO ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES.

VAL>> THAT’S IF THE AQMD VOTES TO OUTLAW IT?

GAY YEE>> THAT’S RIGHT.

VAL>> THAT’S ACTUALLY A PRETTY FAST TRANSITION.

GAY YEE>> THEY’RE SAYING FIFTEEN YEARS.

VAL>> OH, FIFTEEN YEARS?

GAY YEE>> FIFTEEN YEARS UNTIL 2019 TO SWITCH IT OUT. HOWEVER, THEY’RE SAYING THE LIFE OF THE MACHINE SHOULD BE TEN YEARS, SO IT SHOULDN’T BE A PROBLEM. YOU TALK TO THE DRY CLEANERS AND THEY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT STORY.

VAL>> TO BE CONTINUED. WE’LL FIND OUT WHAT THEY VOTE VERY SOON. THANK YOU, GAY.

MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, TAKING THE SWEAT OUT OF L.A.’S SO-CALLED SWEATSHOPS. WE’LL HEAR FROM GARMENT WORKERS WHO ARE FINALLY GETTING A BREAK AFTER YEARS OF LONG HOURS AND LOW WAGES.

>> I SEE JUST A SIMPLE T-SHIRT, JUST A SIMPLE ONE. $58? IT MAKES ME WANT TO CRY BECAUSE, OUT OF THOSE $80, MAYBE SOME WORKER BACK IN MY COUNTRY OR EVEN HERE IN L.A. JUST GOT A FEW PENNIES OUT OF IT.

JESS>> OUR NEXT GUEST TRAINED TO KEEP GOVERNMENT SECRETS, BUT HE BECAME A LEGENDARY WHISTLEBLOWER WHEN HE LEAKED THE PENTAGON PAPERS TO MEMBERS OF THE PRESS. DANIEL ELLSBERG WAS INDICTED FOR SPILLING THE UNTOLD STORY ABOUT AMERICA’S WAR WITH VIETNAM, BUT ELLSBERG PREVAILED IN HIS BATTLE WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND THE PENTAGON PAPERS BECAME PART OF THE AMERICAN STORY.

VAL>> NOW, THIRTY YEARS LATER, HE’S WRITTEN AN INSIDER’S ACCOUNT OF THE DRAMA HE LIVED. IT’S CALLED “SECRETS: A MEMOIR OF VIETNAM AND THE PENTAGON PAPERS” AND, IN THE BOOK, ELLSBERG WONDERS HOW FAR THE GOVERNMENT MIGHT GO TO KEEP SECRETS TODAY. HE JOINS US NOW.

JESS>> YOU WERE CERTAINLY ONE OF THE EARLY WHISTLEBLOWERS, BUT THERE WERE THOSE WHO REGARDED YOU AS A TRAITOR? STILL SOME WHO DO?

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> I HOPE NOT. WHEN I FIND SOMEBODY WHO THINKS THAT, I KNOW I’M TALKING TO SOMEBODY WHO DOESN’T UNDERSTAND THIS COUNTRY VERY WELL AND DOESN’T UNDERSTAND THE FIRST AMENDMENT. IT CAN’T BE TREASON FOR AN AMERICAN TO TELL TRUTH TO CONGRESS AND TO HIS FELLOW CITIZENS HERE AND I’M VERY PROUD OF THAT.

JESS>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY OF ASHCROFT’S PLAN TO STIFFEN PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE WHO LEAK SECRETS?

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> WELL, HE CLAIMS HE HAS A LAW FOR PROSECUTION, SO ALL HE NEEDS TO DO NOW IS TIGHTEN WITH CIVIL PENALTIES AND SO FORTH. HE’S BLUFFING, UNLESS HE’S QUITE IGNORANT OF THE LAW, WHICH IS ANOTHER POSSIBILITY. THE LAW I WAS PROSECUTED UNDER THIRTY YEARS AGO WAS NEVER INTENDED TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO GAVE INFORMATION TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC OR TO CONGRESS. CONGRESS HAS NEVER INTENTIONALLY PASSED -- HAD NOT AT THAT TIME -- INTENTIONALLY PASSED AN OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT OF THE KIND THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS DID PASS JUST A COUPLE YEARS AGO IN THE LAST DAYS OF CLINTON, WHICH PRESIDENT CLINTON PROPERLY VETOED BECAUSE IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

WHEN ASHCROFT SAYS HE HAS A LAW TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE WITH, HE’S NOT REALLY GIVING THE BACKGROUND OF THAT, WHICH IS WHEN I WAS PROSECUTED UNDER THAT IN 1971, I WAS THE FIRST PERSON EVER PROSECUTED UNDER THAT SO-CALLED ESPIONAGE ACT AND THERE’S BEEN EXACTLY ONE SINCE. SO THE CHANCE OF BEING PROSECUTED IS NOT REALLY VERY HIGH, THANK GOODNESS. IF HE HAS SOME OTHER PENALTIES IN MIND, HE SAYS THE REASON IT’S HARD TO GET THESE PEOPLE IS THAT YOU CAN’T FIND OUT WHO THE LEAKER WAS. I’LL MAKE IT EASY FOR HIM. THIS BOOK IS FILLED WITH THINGS THAT ALL WERE TOP SECRET AT THE TIME AND SOME OF THEM STILL ARE. HE DOESN’T HAVE TO PUT ME ON A LIE DETECTOR TO FIND OUT WHO WROTE THIS BOOK.

VAL>> SO IN YOUR BOOK IS INFORMATION THAT TODAY IS STILL CONSIDERED TOP SECRET?

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> ACTUALLY, I WAS JUST LOOKING FOR ONE AND I NOTICED THAT, AT THE VERY LAST MOMENT FOR SPACE, IT GOT CUT OUT. BUT IT IS ON THE WEB ON A SITE THAT MY SON SET UP FOR ME, MY YOUNG SON WHO UNDERSTANDS THESE THINGS, ELLSBERG.NET, IN A SECTION CALLED “OUTTAKES”, STUFF THAT WAS, JUST FOR SPACE, CUT OUT AT THE LAST MOMENT. THERE’S A QUOTE IN THERE IN A CONVERSATION BETWEEN PRESIDENT JOHNSON BEFORE THE TONKIN GULF RESOLUTION, THE FIRST TONKIN GULF RESOLUTION IN JUNE 1964 IN A DISCUSSION WITH LESTER PEARSON, WHO WAS THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA.

THAT HAS MOSTLY BEEN DECLASSIFIED, BUT THE SENTENCE THAT WAS IN MY BOOK UNTIL THE LAST DRAFT AND IS ON THE “OUTTAKES” NOW HAS LESTER PEARSON QUOTED IN A STATE DEPARTMENT CABLE AS SAYING TO PRESIDENT JOHNSON -- THIS IS BEFORE, NOW, THE TONKIN GULF INCIDENTS SO-CALLED AT A TIME WHEN THE PRESIDENT AND MY BOSS WERE ALREADY PREPARING TO PROVOKE ACTIONS FROM NORTH VIETNAM THAT WOULD ENABLE US TO “RETALIATE AND GET THE BOMBING STARTED” AS HAPPENED IN THE TONKIN GULF INCIDENT -- SO PEARSON WAS AGREEING WITH THIS AND WAS SAYING -- HE LATER GOT THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, BY THE WAY, BUT NOT FOR THIS -- HE WAS SAYING, “I WOULD HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT THE USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS BY YOU IN ATTACKING NORTH VIETNAM, BUT I HAVE NO RESERVATIONS ABOUT THE DISCRIMINATE USE OF CONVENTIONAL IRON BOMBS -- THAT’S THE MILITARY TERM FOR NON-NUCLEAR WEAPONS -- AGAINST CAREFUL TARGETS IN THERE.”

THAT SENTENCE, SO FAR AS I KNOW, IS STILL REGARDED BY THE GOVERNMENT AS TOP SECRET BECAUSE THE HISTORIANS WHO PUT OUT THE PENTAGON PAPERS LATER TRIED TO GET DECLASSIFIED THAT PASSAGE AND, AS LATE AS THE EARLY 1990’S, THEY COULD NOT GET THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO DECLASSIFY POSSIBLY BECAUSE IT TALKED ABOUT NUCLEAR WEAPONS SUCH AS WE’RE FACING RIGHT NOW. EVERY REFERENCE TO NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM IN THE PENTAGON PAPERS, WAS CENSORED OUT OF THE GOVERNMENT EDITION, OBJECTED TO EVEN WHEN IT WENT BACK TWENTY AND THIRTY YEARS.

VAL>> IN FACT, THIS IS ONE OF YOUR CONTENTIONS, THAT A LOT OF WHAT IS CLASSIFIED REALLY DOES NOT NEED TO BE CLASSIFIED IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> WELL, CERTAINLY THIRTY-YEAR-OLD STATEMENTS -- THE STATEMENT I JUST QUOTED TO YOU IS THIRTY-EIGHT YEARS OLD. THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT’S NOT REGARDED AS TOP SECRET STILL NOW POSSIBLY BECAUSE IT WOULD BE EMBARRASSING TO LESTER PEARSON, THE NOBEL PRIZE CANDIDATE, BUT PARTICULARLY BECAUSE IT WOULD ALERT OUR CITIZENS EVEN NOW AT ANY TIME TO THE AMOUNT OF DISCUSSION THERE ACTUALLY IS IN OUR GOVERNMENT ABOUT POSSIBLE USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS. THAT IS GOING ON, I’M CERTAIN, RIGHT NOW.

IF SADDAM HUSSEIN SHOULD USE, AS GEORGE TENET, DIRECTOR OF THE CIA, HAS PREDICTED, HE WILL USE CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS IF HE CAN IF WE ATTACK AND NOT OTHERWISE. IF HE DOES THAT, WHAT WILL THE RESPONSE BE FROM ISRAEL OR THIS COUNTRY? PRESIDENT BUSH HAS SAID WE WILL ANNIHILATE THEM. CHENEY, I BELIEVE, USED THAT WORD, TO BE PRECISE. SHARON AND OTHERS HAVE SAID WE WILL DESTROY THEIR SOCIETY. I BELIEVE THAT IS A THREAT OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, OR WHAT BUSH HAS CALLED CORRECTLY WEAPONS OF MASS MURDER. BUT THE WORD NUCLEAR IS HARD TO FIND IN ACCOUNTS OF THAT NOW. WHAT I’M SAYING IS SOMEBODY WHO CONSULTED FOR THE PENTAGON ON NUCLEAR WAR PLANNING FOR MANY YEARS EVEN BEFORE I CAME INTO THE PENTAGON AS A FULL-TIME EMPLOYEE, I WAS AWARE OF THE NUMBER OF TIMES WE’VE MADE FIRST THREATS.

I AM SURE FROM THAT EXPERIENCE THAT RIGHT NOW TARGETING IS GOING ON FOR CONTINGENCY PLANS, BOTH IN ISRAEL AND THE U.S., FOR THE POSSIBLE USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO RESPOND TO CHEMICAL WEAPONS USED AGAINST OUR TROOPS. THE PUBLIC SHOULD BE IN ON THAT DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW AND I REALLY URGE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THIS AND WHO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS A WRONGFUL WAR AND UNNECESSARY WAR -- AND WE KNOW THAT THE PENTAGON IS FILLED WITH SUCH PEOPLE AT THE TIME. THEY HAVE BEEN MAKING UNAUTHORIZED DISCLOSURES. THAT’S WHAT RUMSFELD AND ASHCROFT ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT -- I URGE THEM, IF THEY BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT IS LYING OR CONCEALING INFORMATION THAT CONGRESS MUST HAVE, TO DO OR CONSIDER DOING WHAT I WISH I HAD DONE IN 1964 AND 1965 WHEN I WAS IN THE PENTAGON. GO TO CONGRESS AND THE PRESS AND TELL THE TRUTH WITH DOCUMENTS.

JESS>> THE CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER YOU’RE CONCERNED ABOUT IS POINTED OUT IN AN L.A. TIMES REVIEW OF YOUR BOOK AND IT CONTAINS THIS SENTENCE. “IF WE’RE LOOKING FOR A WARNING SIGNAL AS WE TEETER ON THE BRINK OF YET ANOTHER WAR WAGED ON THE BASIS OF INFORMATION CONSIDERED TOO IMPORTANT TO SHARE WITH THE PUBLIC, WE SHOULD LOOK NO FURTHER THAN THESE PAGES”, REFERRING TO YOUR BOOK.

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> WELL, I APPRECIATED THAT REVIEW. I MYSELF CAME TO THINK IN THE LAST WEEK OR TWO THAT WE ARE SO MUCH IN THE PROCESS OF REPEATING THE TERRIBLE HISTORY IN THIS BOOK AND I --

JESS>> -- BEING LIED TO, ARE WE?

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> WE’RE BEING LIED TO BY THE VICE PRESIDENT, THE PRESIDENT AND OTHERS WHO ARE PURSUING A PLAN THAT THEY KNOW THE PUBLIC DOES NOT WANT TO SUPPORT AS A UNILATERAL --

JESS>> -- AND YET THE PUBLIC IS CLEARLY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION AND OF THE --

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> -- OF THE ADMINISTRATION, RIGHT, AS THEY WERE OF LYNDON JOHNSON WHO WAS ABOUT TO WIN AN ELECTION BY A LANDSLIDE AGAINST AN OPPONENT WHO WAS CALLING FOR ESCALATION. HE WON THAT ELECTION ON THE BASIS OF STATEMENTS REPEATEDLY “WE SEEK NO WIDER WAR”. INSIDE THE PENTAGON, I KNEW THAT WAS A LIE AND ON ELECTION DAY, NOVEMBER 3, 1964, AS THE VOTES WERE BEING CAST AGAINST ESCALATION, AGAINST GOLDWATER, IN UNPRECEDENTED DEGREE, I WAS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT REPRESENTING THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT ALONG WITH MY BOSS PLANNING DIFFERENT FORMS OF WIDER WAR WHICH WE KNEW WOULD GET UNDERWAY AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE AFTER THE ELECTION. I’VE REGRETTED FOR MANY YEARS NOW THAT I DIDN’T DO WHAT I COULD THEN TO HAVE INFORMED CONGRESS OF WHERE WE WERE HEADING.

VAL>> BUT, SURELY, YOU APPRECIATE THE NEED FOR SECRECY AND CONFIDENTIALITY, AND I WOULD THINK A DISCUSSION IN THE WHITE HOUSE ABOUT NUCLEAR WEAPONS WOULD BE ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS WHERE CONFIDENTIALITY IS IN IT.

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> YES, AND I’D BE QUITE WILLING TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION IN COURT UNDER OATH IF ASHCROFT WANTS TO FIND SOMEBODY WHO IS PERFECTLY PREPARED TO TEST THOSE LAWS. SHOULD THERE BE SECRETS? YES. SHOULD THERE EVEN ON OCCASION BE LIES, AS THE DATE OF THE NORMANDY INVASION OR THE PLACE OF THAT? YES, THERE SHOULD BE.

JESS>> VERY LIMITED, THOUGH.

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> VERY LIMITED. AND THE WAY IT’S DONE NOW, THE SECRETS I’M TALKING ABOUT WHICH FORTUNATELY PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY HAVE BEEN GIVING TO CONGRESS SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SECRET. NOT ONLY NOT AFTER YEARS, NOT HISTORY. IF I HAD HAD CURRENT DOCUMENTS AT THE TIME IN 1969 OR 1971, I WOULD HAVE PUT THEM OUT RATHER THAN THE HISTORY, BUT THE PENTAGON PAPERS WERE ALL I HAD. I ADMIRE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PUTTING OUT CURRENT DOCUMENTS NOW IN THEIR BEST JUDGMENT THAT THEY BELIEVE. AND NOT ONE OF THEM, BY THE WAY, HAS BEEN SO FAR DEMONSTRATED TO HAVE HURT OUR NATIONAL SECURITY. NONE OF THE THINGS ASHCROFT IS --

JESS>> -- BUT THEY ARE UNDER THREAT FROM ATTORNEY GENERAL ASHCROFT?

DANIEL ELLSBERG>> THEY’RE UNDER THREAT. ASHCROFT IS PRETENDING HE DOESN’T KNOW WHO THEY ARE. I THINK THAT, ACTUALLY TO TEST THIS LAW, IF I WERE IN THE GOVERNMENT, WITH THE EXAMPLES SET TO ME THAT LED ME FINALLY TO RISK MY FREEDOM ON THIS, IF I WERE IN THERE NOW, I WOULD DO WHAT I FINALLY DID AFTER THE BOMBING HAD STARTED FIVE YEARS INTO IT. I WOULD SAY HERE’S A SAFE FULL OF DOCUMENTS. I’M NOT GOING TO CLAIM OR PRETEND SOMEBODY ELSE DID IT. I DID IT. LET’S GO TO TRIAL AND LET’S TEST BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT WHETHER CONGRESS SHOULD HAVE THIS INFORMATION AND THE PUBLIC OR NOT. I’M DOING THAT RIGHT NOW IN MY OUT-OF-DATE LITTLE WAY, BUT THE INFORMATION IS STILL TOP SECRET. IT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN AND IT STILL IS FORTY YEARS LATER.

VAL>> DANIEL ELLSBERG, WE WANT TO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR BOOK AND YOUR COURAGE. AGAIN, THE NAME OF THE BOOK IS “SECRETS: A MEMOIR OF VIETNAM AND THE PENTAGON PAPERS”. THANK YOU SO MUCH. TOO SHORT A TIME.

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JESS>> IT IS NO LONGER SEALED OFF FROM THE WORLD AND SOME SAY THAT’S THE PROBLEM. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE LAND OF TIBET, HIGH IN THE MOUNTAINS OF SOUTHWEST CHINA.

VAL>> TIBET HAS MANAGED TO HOLD ONTO ITS SENSE OF MYSTERY AND INTRIGUE, BUT SOME SAY THAT’S CHANGING RAPIDLY AS THOUSANDS OF CHINESE VISITORS BRING MODERN PROBLEMS TO THIS ANCIENT WORLD. TONIGHT OUR FRIENDS AT CHANNEL ONE NEWS TAKE US ON A GUIDED TOUR. HERE IS SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, LISA LING.

LISA LING>> ALL RIGHT, WE JUST JUMPED IN A CAB BECAUSE WE SAW JUST THRONGS OF CHINESE SOLDIERS RUNNING DOWN THE STREET. HOPEFULLY, WE’LL BE ABLE TO CATCH THEM. HERE THEY ARE. TONS OF THEM. SEE THERE? IT LOOKS LIKE THESE CHINESE SOLDIERS ARE DOING THEIR MILITARY EXERCISES. THEY’VE BEEN RUNNING ALL THROUGHOUT THE CITY.

EVERY NOW AND THEN, ON THE STREETS OF LHASA, YOU CAN SEE EVIDENCE OF CHINA’S MILITARY CONTROL OVER TIBET. BUT AS WE ARE FINDING OUT, THE MAIN PROBLEM THAT TIBETANS FACE TODAY ISN’T POLITICAL OPPRESSION BY CHINA. WHAT’S GOING ON HERE IS ACTUALLY MORE SERIOUS, WHICH IS WHAT’S CALLED POPULATION TRANSFER, THE IDEA BEING THAT, WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, THE NUMBER OF CHINESE IN TIBET IS GOING TO EXPLODE. THAT MEANS THAT TIBET’S CULTURE IS BEING OVERWHELMED BY THE CHINESE.

I JUST WANT YOU TO OBSERVE SOME OF THE SIGNS. IF YOU LOOK, THE TIBETAN LANGUAGE IS ABOVE THE CHINESE AND IT’S MANDATORY FOR THE TIBETAN WRITING TO BE MUCH SMALLER THAN THE CHINESE. LOOK. FROM COMMERCIAL SIGNS ON BUSINESSES TO TELEVISION COMMERCIALS, MORE AND MORE THINGS IN TIBET ARE CHINESE.

CHINA HAS ALWAYS CLAIMED THAT TIBET IS PART OF CHINA, SO THEY SAY, LOOK AROUND, THIS DEVELOPMENT IS AMAZING. WE SHOULD BE PROUD THAT WE COULD DEVELOP THIS PLACE THAT WAS CONSIDERED THE MOST REMOTE REGION OF THE WORLD.

WE’RE COMING TO THE FRUIT MARKET. OH, BUT IT’S NOT JUST FRUIT. LOOK AT ALL THE DEAD CARCASSES. YOU SAID IT WAS A FRUIT MARKET, NOT A CARCASS MARKET.

MARKETS LIKE THIS ONE SHOW OFF LHASA’S GROWING PROSPERITY. BUT IF YOU LOOK AROUND, YOU CAN SEE THAT NONE OF THE MERCHANTS ARE TIBETAN. THIS MARKET IS ALMOST ENTIRELY CHINESE. RIGHT NOW THE POPULATION OF TIBET IS ABOUT 13.5 MILLION. SIX MILLION TIBETANS, 7.5 MILLION CHINESE.

I ASKED THAT GUY FROM SZECHWAN PROVINCE IN CHINA WHETHER HE LIKED IT HERE AND HE SAID, YES, A LOT BECAUSE THE MONEY IS GOOD AND THE BUSINESS IS GOOD. A LOT OF CHINESE FROM THE MAINLAND FLOCK TO TIBET BECAUSE THEY’RE OFFERED A LOT OF INCENTIVES. THE WEATHER IS NICE, IT’S BEAUTIFUL, IT’S NOT AS CROWDED AS A LOT OF THE BIG CITIES. WELL, EVERYONE HERE REALLY SEEMS TO LIKE IT.

WELL, NOT EVERYONE. THE INFLUX OF CHINESE IS MAKING TIBET MORE PROSPEROUS, BUT IT CAN ALSO BE TOUGH FOR TIBETANS TO TAKE PART IN THE PROSPERITY. AN HOUR OUT OF LHASA, THESE TIBETAN VILLAGERS WERE BRINGING IN THE HARVEST. TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH THE KIDS, I STARTED HANDING OUT PENS.

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THEY’RE CALLING EVERY KID IN THE VILLAGE TO COME GET A PEN. NOW ALL THE ADULTS WANT PENS (LAUGHTER). PRETTY SOON, THE ENTIRE VILLAGE STOPPED WORKING TO GATHER AROUND ME.

DO THEY HAVE TELEVISION HERE?

INTERPRETER>> NO ELECTRICITY POWER.

DO THESE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN GO TO THE SECONDARY SCHOOLS?

INTERPRETER>> THEY NEVER.

DO ANY OF THESE PEOPLE SPEAK CHINESE?

INTERPRETER>> NO, NOBODY CAN SPEAK CHINESE.

IN ORDER TO GET JOBS IN TIBET, ONE HAS TO BE EDUCATED UP TO A CERTAIN DEGREE AND A LOT OF TIBETANS ARE NOT, SO OF COURSE, THEY HAVE A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME GETTING JOBS THAN THE CHINESE. TIBETANS LIKE THESE BOYS I MET IN NEPAL SAY THEY LEFT TIBET IN SEARCH OF GREATER OPPORTUNITIES. IF YOU HAD STAYED, WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED?

INTERPRETER>> IF YOU CAN CHOOSE TO STAY BACK, THE EDUCATION THEY WILL BE RECEIVING IS NOT STANDARD. IT IS VERY LOW, INFERIOR STANDARD OF EDUCATION.

AS THE REST OF CHINA GROWS DRAMATICALLY, THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS DETERMINED TO DEVELOP TIBET AS WELL. ALREADY THE CHINESE OUTNUMBER TIBETANS IN TIBET AND, RIGHT NOW, THEY’RE CONSTRUCTING A RAILROAD FROM MAINLAND CHINA. IT’S SUPPOSED TO END IN THIS AREA HERE IN LHASA AND PEOPLE SAY THAT, ONCE THAT HAPPENS, SAY GOODBYE TO TIBET BECAUSE IT WILL ALLOW THE CHINESE SO MUCH MORE ACCESS INTO THIS WORLD. MANY TIBETANS FEAR THAT ONE DAY TIBETAN CULTURE WILL BE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND EXCEPT IN SHOWS PUT ON FOR TOURISTS.

VAL>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. WE INVITE YOU TO LOG ONTO KCET.ORG. THERE YOU WILL FIND A HANDY ELECTION GUIDE BY CLICKING ONTO “REALITY CHECKS”. THAT’S THE BUTTON ON THE WEB PAGE TO CLICK.

JESS>> NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

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